Partly continued from 'So you think you know all about Mormonism...': and other studies such as creationism on this web site.  There are also many very personal emails.

However, here are just a very few of the emails received and replied to:

Subject: Mormons.

Hi Bryce. I am an ex Mormon having served as both a Bishop and a Stake President.  I am a Stress Consultant and soon to be fully qualified as a Hypnotherapist and Psychotherapist.  I am offering to support those leaving Mormonism (or wanting to) free of Charge as my time allows.  I would be grateful if you would link my web page to your site....  I am an ordained minister of the Universal Life Church also.....  I live near London and have a consulting room there.  I will of course be happy to speak to anyone too far away from me on the phone if I can help. Thanks and regards, Alan

Hello Alan, thank you for your email.  I am so pleased you are now free of the Mormon Church.....  However I would not be able to link your web site to mine, I'm afraid.  I have read yours and also looked at the Universal Life Church web site.  I do not believe God gives salvation to all.  Narrow is the way to heaven but it is a broad way to hell.  There is only one way to God and that is through the real Jesus. Jesus said we have to be born again.  I would respectfully suggest you have moved from one deception into another.  I note the offer of the Universal Life Church of ordination with a smile. I have been offered ordination before but never without condition which makes it rather meaningless.  Ordination is meaningless anyway as that is Old Testament Law, we are now under Grace - thank you Jesus!  Bless you for your kind offer to help which I know was meant with the best intention.  Bryce

Hi Bryce, thanks for your reply but when I studied Mormon history and found it to be untrue I also looked into Christianity deeply and am not at all certain it is what most Christians think it to be.  I do however have respect for all religions and so do not wish to offend anyone.  Thanks for your attention to my request for a link and I do understand your reasons for not wishing to have the link. best wishes Alan

Hello again Alan, you have put your finger right on the spot.  I often say that Mormonism is from the pit of hell because they destroy your faith in main stream Christianity, then when you leave the Mormons there is nowhere to go.  I told the Mission President  I was leaving the Mormons and the reasons and he told me he had the same doubts too!  He agreed with what I said but then he said, "But where is there to go?"  When I left I looked for a church organisation (like the Mormon Church) but the real Church, the Bride of Christ, is not an organisation as the Mormons would have us believe, but a personal relationship with the Bridegroom Jesus.  The apostate church over the last 1700 years has tried to make it an organisation but it is not.  Therefore.... you are probably looking at the Harlot Church and shuddering at all the dross and gunge that has stuck to it over centuries but it is Jesus, the real Jesus, to Whom you should look. How true is the "routine of religion" words of Isaiah 29:13;

"These people come near to me with their mouth and honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.  Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men." 

Bless you, Bryce

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Subject: Entropy

I've been meaning to write for some time as I am an agnostic evolutionist. The second law of thermodynamics where things run down (entropy) does not apply to the “Big Bang”. The law here is “reverse entropy”. After the “Big Bang” things built up, they improved. Only after our earth evolved into the state we know now does entropy apply. Just thought you'd like to know. Francis J.

Hello Francis, what you say is very interesting, it sounds really impressive but (as an agnostic evolutionist) you cannot change the laws of science to fit the evolutionary model. It is impossible to prove this reverse entropy so it is just your own belief after all. HOWEVER; I do believe that, although God clearly works within His own laws, He can seem to change those laws at certain times. For example it may surprise you to know that I do believe in “reverse entropy” because reading the Bible it is clear this was the case before the fall of mankind. The curse God caused to come upon the earth was entropy – so you see, only God can change the laws of science. If you believe these laws have changed, be careful, you may end up believing in God after all! This will all be discussed and explained in Challenger shortly. Bryce.

Subject: I have recently left the church.

I started questionng the church when I felt obligated to Marry, fear was
taken in.  The men of the church wouldn't say anything to me after I told one
of the men of the church that I wasn't interested in getting Married.  I
became scared a lot of times. And a fear of doing wrong was always there.  My
parents joined and my sister did too.  My brother in-law will soon join.
They see the help that they have given them and I feel they feel obligated.
On the other hand they are happy.  It is just my son and myself.  I was
terrified to leave.  But I did.  I ended up go through Major depression and
now I am fine now.  I don't see any one of the church.  And I didn't go
through the temple because of a feeling I had.  I feel more at peace now than
ever before

Thank you,
I know I am not crazy now.
C.
 

Hello C

Thank you for emailing me and for your encouragement.  I had similar difficulties leaving the Mormons.  Many have left.  It is important that you get to know the real Jesus and become a real Christian.

Subject: My enlightenment.

Dear Mr Kaye, Just a note to say thank you for an informative site. Although I have believed there is a God who created me since I was about 10 years old because of the teaching of evolution I adopted the view, as I know many did and still do, that we evolved but by Gods hand. I now know this to be untrue thanks mainly to you. When my wife and I moved to [our village] just outside Lincoln, almost 17 years ago we only knew two people here but luckily they are good Christians and through them we now know many more and thankfully [our village] seems full of like minded people. Having had a number of discussions with other members of our fellowship group about the problems I was having with my beliefs concerning creation against evolution a friend and neighbour and his wife came over one evening and we had a good chat about my problems and the evening finished with him giving me your web address..... I down loaded it, printed out the results and duly read it and found the answers to all my questions. Thanks to you and our friends I now sleep nights and my faith, which has been tested dreadfully over the past few years, is now stronger than ever. Life is so much better when shared fully with Jesus. God bless you and keep up the good work. E & S

Hello E and S, thank you for emailing me.  I am always so greatly encouraged when I receive emails such as yours.  My whole web site was well worth doing if it has contributed to your salvation.  One day we will rejoice together in heaven! ..... It is amazing just how many preachers believe God used evolution but if there was death before Adam there is no need for Jesus when you think about it.  It is just another way of devaluing Jesus.  The Lord bless you both. Bryce

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Subject: Christianity, Islam - the whole lot. (Summary of 2 emails)

Bryce. I doubt that you will like what I am going to write, so I'll just write it and clear off. It's very simple; If you want to move people away from things like Mormonism, Islam or whatever, then there is one, and only one way to do it. That is to get every single person on earth to come together and admit, as one, that; "None of us know a damned thing about God." The reason? Because none of us do. And that's that. Religions, all of them, are man's attempt to explain what he does not understand. ALL of them are filled with hypocricy, idiocy, fraudulent claims, wild inconsistencies and bigotry on an unbelievable scale, and none are worth anything. They have, together, been responsible for millions of deaths, endless suffering and pain, not to mention the theft of personal funds and possessions due to idiotic things like so called 'tithing.' The Church, by any name, is the greatest and most hideous tragedy to befall mankind since he walked out of Africa.

History suggests that Jesus Christ was a real individual. It also tells us that he never once claimed to be the son of God, nor did he claim to have performed miracles. Belief or faith are indeed good things, but their nature has been horribly corrupted by those who claim to know about God. In rather the same way as radical Islamic fundamentalists claim to know that Allah is God, and everyone else is wrong. One of you must be wrong. You also claim to know about God. How is this? Have you spoken with him? Did he pop down and have a chat at some point? On the subject of hypocricy; to list the sheer number of hypocricies in the Bible and in the history of Christianity would take a book in itself, although I can rattle a few simple ones out if you'd like, there's plenty to choose from. As soon as someone tries to put a name to the faith, or explain it, everything goes pear shaped. "You're wrong!" "No, you're wrong!" "Want a fight about it?" You get my point. Religious intolerance is the single greatest disaster on our planet, and all those who believe that they know they are right are the cause of it. A few centuries of burning so called 'heretics' for making such ridiculous claims as; 'We are not the centre of the universe and we do go around the sun'... isn't exactly what I'd call religious tolerance. It's hypocricy - because the church has had to back-pedal and admit it's errors for hundreds of years now, ever since the masses were allowed to learn again after the Christian church burned the books and plunged mankind into the Dark Ages. Funny, I seem to recall the Nazis in Europe and the Taliban in Afghanistan doing exactly the same... Dean.

Hello Dean, thank you for your emails.... I have to correct you on your first two points - Jesus frequently said he was the Son of God, indeed he said more than once that He was actually God. He did not claim to have worked miracles, He did better, He actually did them - many! The difficult thing here is that we are talking with different values. The Bible tells us that the spiritual thoughts of a believer are foolishness to unbelievers. I speak spiritually. God is very much alive - I spoke to Him this morning. Your problem is unbelief, not lack of evidence! Therefore, what is the point in telling you whether I have seen God - you do not understand faith which cannot be understood by the world at large. Secondly, where have I said I was 'religious'? You ask what are the things on which we agree? I agree with many of your comments about the 'church'. I am not religious at all. It was the religious people of the time who screamed for the death of the Saviour. Religiosity with all it's pomp, dressing up, endless repetition, wearing head gear originating from the ancient fish god, leaves me cold. I am simply a Christian trying to be as near to those portrayed in the New Testament as possible.

I believe what Jesus said, that there is only one way to be saved, through Him - therefore Islam is a deception. My faith is about a personal relationship with Jesus. Yes, I hear His voice daily but not in the way you think. You say, "On the subject of hypocrisy.... to list the sheer number of hypocrisies in the Bible and in the history of Christianity would take a book in itself, although I can rattle a few simple ones out if you'd like, there's plenty to choose from." Firstly, I'm not here to defend that religious system called the church over the centuries and I would probably agree with what you have to say about that. You should be aware that many of those who claim to be Christians are just nominal Christians - religionists. They are the lukewarm ones whom Jesus will "spew out of His mouth". The "heretics" to which you refer, were probably the real born again Christians who dared to have a personal relationship with Jesus rather than go through a priest. Where does it say in the Bible about religious tolerance? Do also tell me about the hypocrisy in the Bible! I would make one astronomical point: The Bible was saying 3500 years ago that the earth was a ball suspended in space when man claimed it was flat. It was only about 500 years ago man proved the Bible correct. Bless you. Bryce

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Subject: Advice is probably the only free thing which people won't take

Dear Bryce, firstly I would like to respect and acknowledge the hard work and time that must have gone into your presentation on Mormons. Advice is probably the only free thing which people won't take. At the end of the day, every one is different, and every one has the right to their own personal beliefs with out being influenced and imposed on by other's such as yourself.

I am an A level Religious studies student, and I have come to the belief if people spent more time concentrating on the possitive things in life instead of focusing on the negative things and criticisms, our world would be a better place. you have no right to say mormon believers are cursed! they are generally just believing in something they want to believe in, just like many other religious groups! if you do not agree fine. this world is an amasing place, and I dont think there will ever be a universal religion. lighten up and realise if there is one true God out there, that he will love everyone equally. if I was you I would concentrate on spending time, enjoying your life, then spending hours debating on how mormon teaching's are false. Whether one believes in religion or not, whether one believes in this religion or that religion, the very purpose of our life is happiness, the very motion of our life is towards happiness I bless you Bryce, that you may find what ever truth you are looking for!! and that you may understand that until you are perfect don't expect every body, every religion and everything to be perfect. judging others faith will get you no where buddy!! lucy, 17, uk

Hello Lucy and thank you for taking the time from your studies to email me. I wish you every blessing in your studies and we will pray for you to achieve a good grade. Is this your final year or your first? Acquiring knowledge is one thing but recall is quite another and this is what we will pray for, for you (with your permission, of course). Thank you for your kind remarks, yes it took a long time to put everything together. We hear a lot about rights these days and yes, everyone has the God given right to follow any belief they wish, even atheism - which is a belief, of course. I saw a man once with a chain around his neck which read, “I’m not going to hell when I die.” Do you think that would make any difference whether he will end up in hell or not? I am not at all religious as you may have guessed. Religion has done a great deal of harm to the world. The religiosity of dressing up, reciting creeds and indulging in endless “vain” repetition is not what Christianity is about. Jesus explained in John chapter 3 that to be saved from the wrath of God, we have to be born again (the Spiritual birth). He also said He is the only way to God. He also commanded His followers to go out and tell the whole world this good news. Who am I to contradict Him? If Jesus is the only way to God then other religions will not save anyone. As for Mormonism, it looks good on the surface but they do not worship the Jesus of the Bible, therefore are not saved either. Should we say nothing but let all these people perish when they die?

Yes, there is one God out there who loves everyone equally and wishes all to be saved but alas not all His children behave in the same way. What makes you think we are on this earth to enjoy our lives? A born again Christian is here to glorify Jesus and to lead as many unbelievers to Him as possible. Jesus did not say go forth and enjoy yourself. Read 1 Corinthians 2:14-15: “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment.” Sometimes we have to make judgments as we are fighting a spirit war. I will make a spiritual judgment now, that you are not born again as in John 3. Think whether you should be, or not?

I pray a blessing on you in Jesus’ name, that you will one day invite Him into your life and become born again, that you will be a great warrior for Jesus. I bless you with great spiritual discernment and good physical health. I bless you with the physical protection of Jesus and ask that He will place an angel at the side of you to protect you throughout your life. I bless you with holiness and pray you will know the difference between truth and deception, in Jesus’ name. Your ‘buddy’, Bryce.

P.S. Advice isn't the only free thing people won't take, there is also that gift of being 'born again' from Jesus saving you from God's wrath to come (John 3)

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Subject: Repent and be rebaptised you wicked man.

Brother Kaye, I know you and I know your works that are of the devil. How can you say such things about a Church you once loved? I beg you to RECONSIDER your ETERNAL STATE and REPENT of this madness that has overcome you. Apply to be re baptised a Mormon again and then you will be able to regain your valued PRIESTHOOD once more, if you do not you are heading for that fiery pit! Jeff.

Hello Jeff. Nice to hear from you after all this time..... I say these things because they are true and to warn others.... Bryce.

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Subject: Age of the universe.

You Christians are so illogical. Your arguments do not stand up to examination. You claim that God controls time and space. In doing so, light, when created, was infinite and instantaneous..... you claim (startlingly) that light is slowing down, and is currently at its speed of 186,181 mps. But the speed of light is a constant! E=mc2, where energy = mass X the speed of light, squared – the equation only works if the speed of light is a constant. The constant is one applied in a vacuum, such as that of space, and through which I, and my colleagues, can date the universe around us, and know without doubt that our universe is indeed extremely ancient. Hubble, in 1999 (I believe) photographed proto-planetary discs in motion within the Orion Nebula, with young stars at their centre and vast discs of dust and gas condensing into proto-planets over aeons of time. Photographic evidence of solar star and planet formation over billions of years. How do you therefore continue to claim that the Universe is only 6000 years old? It really is quite ridiculous. With respect, if you wish people to become Christians you should adopt a more modern approach to science. (Name withheld on request).

Hello... nice to hear from you again. At the risk of sending you into convulsions, I wouldn't start from here! You are assuming the universe had a beginning and indeed began with a 'big bang'. To ASS-U-ME is to make an ASS out of U and ME. The New Scientist reported on the 20th March this year that the Hubble Space Telescope photographed 10,000 galaxies spread across an area of sky one tenth the size of the moon. Doubtless you would say this disproves the Bible. I would say it demonstrated the glory of my God! - (Q.E.D?)

Regarding the velocity of light; I refer you to my web site and Setterfield's and Norman's thesis on the velocity of c. In 1981 Barry Setterfield published his thesis I believe. As you say, if a reduction of the velocity of c is demonstrated then accepted physical laws begin to change. So many other 'constants' would be affected. He says it would affect 17 physical constants in one way or another. The main reason you don't accept Setterfields finding, I suspect, is that dates obtained by radioactive decay would reduce by millions of years (see my web site) to just a few thousand years, thereby supporting the Biblical time scale and dispatching evolution back to Fairyland where it belongs!

You assume an ancient universe created with a big bang. Someone once said that a child came home to a bath full of water his mother had run for him so that he could take a bath.. He puzzled over it. Had the bath been run at almost boiling and been standing a long time (as you would assume) or had the water been in the bath only a minute or so because his mother knew exactly what temperature he would like it. There is no way of knowing unless you ask your ‘mother’. I did and He said that He created the universe pretty much as it is now! Never ASSUME!

Surely I do not have to refer you, of all people, to the laws of thermodynamics? The first law tells us there is nothing within the universe capable of bringing it into being. It must have been created by Something outside of the universe. It does not matter how long you say the universe has existed. The second law tells us that if the universe has always existed then it would be a mass of disorder with no energy left. It would be dead but as it clearly is not, it cannot be infinitely old but must have had a beginning and quite recently. You cannot have an explosion billions of years ago (chaos) resulting in our universe of great order. The third law? Well, you know that if you have an open system and add raw energy to it, it will not give you increased order. There is no order in this mythical “Primeval Soup” or the “Big Bang”. It’s scientific nonsense to expect such a thing to produce life! Charles Darwin said sunlight and electric discharges would produce a living cell - what fantasy! Energy and chance will not increase order. Finally Newton told us in his laws of motion that you cannot have an effect without a cause and no exceptions to the law of cause and effect have ever been observed. The “Big Bang” theory also violates the law of cause and effect by creating matter and energy out of nothing.

As you know science deals with theories and these can be modified or abolished as new evidence becomes available but the Bible has stood the test of time over many centuries and is never modified. No, I really would not start from here but instead start with faith in Jesus as your Saviour. Bless you, Bryce.

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Dear Bryce, You are very honest & brave to write what you have written in your web-site.  I am a Catholic married to Mormon. I love my wife with all my heart as I have done for 23 years. She (along with her whole family and friends) have tried for years to push me to become a Mormon but there are fundamental questions which they have not been able to answer for me. Some of their answers only result in more questions. They refuse to discuss questions about the Temple and in fact I believe I know more about Mormonism than they do. Your website raises similar issues which my wife and family refuse to answer or cannot answer. They resort to inviting the Bishop or Missionaries to our home and really are unable to answer any questions except with readings & excerpts from the Book of Mormon. I agree with you, Mormons (most) are lovely people but I sense from a few I know that they know also that things don't seem to tally but for fear of admitting they were wrong; fear of being shunned; fear of not knowing what next all keep them going to the programmed Relief Society meetings, priesthood, seminary, temple patrons, the list goes on. I believe that the Temple ceremonies and activities are foreign to vulnerable people but many who have attended the temple must feel let down and don't understand the implications as you have so clearly outlined. I would dearly love for them to see your site but I know that they will accuse me of being anti-Mormon. May God bless you and keep you. A.

Hello A, thank you for emailing me.  I agree with everything you say apart from one thing, I am a born again Christian and I have found the real Jesus many years ago.  It is not easy though, when one has been a Mormon.  I agree with you, it is difficult to get them to face up to the fact that they may be wrong.  Praying them out of it is effective.  The prayers of a righteous person are powerful and effective.  You don't say whether you are born again (John ch 3) or not.  When I was "called" (the Mormon way) to become .......... but finally said I was going to leave the Mormon Church the Mission President to whom I was responsible and a lovely man, was horrified.  He said, "You can't do that, you will take many of our people with you, their testimonies are based on you!"  What an admission!  You see they are in a cult, a church system and rely on it for their salvation.  They call upon more senior Mormons, for example the local bishop.  What he says is truth to them.  When I went through various points of doctrine with Ron Hyde he admitted he had doubts too!  He certainly had about the temple and thought much of what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young said, was a joke, but he ended with, "But where else is there to go?"  We had many debates.  The point to get over to them, if you can, is that salvation comes through the real Jesus, not through the rules and regulations of any church system. Bryce. 

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Subject:

Subject: mormons
You must be one very sick person to write such rubbish about a church that only has one aim and that is to help and bring happiness and peace in to this sad and lonely world, You speak of all you think is bad about the church but not one good thing the church has done for the world in humanitarian aid ref :EARTH QUAKES, FLOODS, aftermaths of wars and other relief to those in need not just to Mormon people but to all races and religions Having read your article you do not mention your own chosen religionor do you not wish to disclose the religion that would allow you to rubbish other religions or is it only the Mormon church you have a problem with?   I am sure that you will not put this in your I-Mail section  but that is not important  I have and still am member of the church for 42 years           Strong and faithful member    

Background:  I had seen a link to my website on this man's web site but
it did not work.  I was simply enquiring about it but I seemed to stir up
something!  (When I replied I had not seen my first email to him and had
forgotten about it).

> > Hello,  I'm Bryce Kaye and you seem to have a link to my web site
> > www.enlightened.org.uk on your site but it doesn't seem to work and
> > goes elsewhere.
> > The Lord bless you.
> > Bryce Kaye

> Subject: "a dog to it's vomit"
>
> > Bryce,
> > How could you be so devious and deceptive as to lie about me having a
> > link on your page..you are such an embittered person, you find what
> > you are looking for. You look for bad, and you turn good into evil,
> > as it suits your purposes.  If you have to lie to persuade someone to
> > look at your web page on Mormonism, then this shows the kind of
> > person you are, worth pity. Look for light...because the darkness is
> > too easy to find, you're enveloped in darkness posing as light, or
> > you would be spending your time talking about Christ and not about
> > things that you know nothing about, and are construing to be
> > darkness.
> >
> > Return, ...as a "dog to it's vomit" to your bitterness and anti
> > Mormonism. I'm sure you know where that scripture is found, since you
> > pretend to be pios but instead are a devious victim of darkness.
> >
> > Take care, Joe ------
> >
> > P.S. I'm sorry if you had an unpleasant experience with Mormonism,
> > please use the correct name. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day
> > Saints. Well. Judas Iscariat had an un pleasant experience with
> > Christ ..you have something in common with him.  Pray about it.

This was followed by five more emails from Joe on the same theme!
 

> Hello Joe
> Well I don't know who you are.  I obviously sent an email to you but I can't
> trace it.  I've obviously upset the Mormon demonic spirit.  I'm afraid you
> come across as an extremely angry man full of hate which is a shame because
> hate and anger destroy and come from the pit of hell.  Love stems from God.
>
> I suggest you re read the six emails you sent me then note of what you are
> accusing me and you will see you display those very same "attributes".  This
> is because we recognise our own faults in others - you're condemning
> yourself!
>
> I have no quarrel with you - whoever you are.  My quarrel is with the Mormon
> church which is leading people to hell.  Surely if I believe that I have a
> right to warn people?  Joseph Smith said the established church was leading
> people to hell and they should join the Mormons.  Surely I am only employing
> the same principle Smith employed?
>
> If you want a sensible debate on the issues I am more than happy to oblige.
> Maybe you can convince me I am wrong but you will need to show love as Paul
> said, otherwise you are just a clanging symbol.
>
> Now - the Mormons claim the American Indians are descended from the Jews.
> Their whole doctrine and Book of Mormon is based on it.
> If you don't know that then you need to brush up on your knowledge of Mormon
> doctrine.
>
> We are saved by grace (read Galations) but it is our salvation through grace
> that produces those good works.  It is not the good works that save.  How
> anyone who reads the Bible, particularly Galations can believe Mormon
> doctrine I just don't know!  I suggest you read the Bible, just sit and read
> it without referring to Mormon commentries and you will be amazed at your
> understanding.
>
> I am aware that the Mormon church has begun to refer to itself as the Church
> of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  This is so that it can trick novices
> into believing it is a mainstream church - another clever deception!
>
> When you're decieved you don't know you're deceived do you?  Otherwise you
> wouldn't be deceived, would you?
>
> If you do reply please do it with love and not anger.
>
> The Lord bless you.
> Bryce Kaye

(No reply)

Subject: Greetings from Atlanta,Ga

> Hello..
> I don't know how to begin this e-mail.... So, I guess I'll just start at
> the beginning. I just would like to thank you for your website. It has
> provided me with so much information. Many of the things on the site I
> instinctivly believed,but i didn't know why. It is so refreshing to see
> that the Lord was speaking to me and I believe that he was moving me
> towards Him...calling me to Him. Today i learned from a  friend of mine
> (whilst fellowshipping) that our salvation is eternal...it's like energy
> in a way (it can't be destroyed). I was so happy. I told everyone that I
> knew. So, thanks again for the website.
> I do have a couple of questions if you don't mind me asking them.
> 1.end time preparation...i have heard of people stock piling water and
> other goods...is this biblical or even logical?
> 2. where does God come from (this isnt a stumbling block for me...i'd
> just like to know what to tell my unbelieving friends when they ask)
> 3. where do we get all the info about angels from?
> 4. what do you think about the name of Jesus (Yeshua) and God (YHWH as
> opposed to Jehovah)..should we call Jesus, Yeshua? and God Yahweh as
> opposed to Jehovah. I heard the "J" words aren't accurate translations
> and don't carry the true power that the original names do....but i do
> realize the God knows your heart..so He knows who "Jesus" is when you
> pray...thoughts//comments???
> 4.what do you think/have you heard about the living stream ministry.
> this is the body of believers that God has led me to at this point in my
> Christian life.
>
> Sorry about any grammatical errors...you know we Americans are kinda
> daft.
>
> Thanks again for everything.
>
> In Yashua's name,
>
> T
 

Hey Bryce,

I don't know if I told you this before, but I found your website by doing a search on Mormonism. Something told me to see what it was all about. Then my search led me to see what people were sayig about the Jehovah's Witnesses and "The Way",and so on.
In my last e-mail I was telling you about the Living Stream Ministry and asking you if you thought they were a "cult". I did reserach on the group and they are considered a cult by many people. They are commonly called the "local church". They were founded by Witness Lee a follower of the Chinese evangelist Watchman Nee. As far as their doctrine goes people weren't giving much proof that their information was subversive. Some people said that they put an extreme (and even literal) emphasis on "eating and drinking" so that makes them a cult. Others said that the fact that they say "Oh, Lord Jesus" while others rattle off remarks like "that's right"  and "amen" makes them a cult because they are repeating the Lord's name like pagans do. Oh, and because they condemn modern "Christianity" because it is corrupt...
This is what I believe. I have read Witness Lee's book about eating the Lord...and one has to admit that there is a definite theme of eating and drinking throuout the Bible. When they say Oh Lord Jesus (which they claim is calling on the Lord's name and aids them in gtting into the spirit) I usually don't say it...at first because I was embarrased,but then because I noticed that they were just saying it with their mouths sometimes..and not their spirits. And the fact that some people call them a cult...I don't know if it's right to label them as such because even Martin Luther was labelled a heretic and he showed us justification of faith.
So,what am I trying to say? I don't know. I'm just confused...I need to pray on it. I don't know if God wanted me to see that they were considered a cult  by some people or if Satan was just trying to confuse me. Because the fact of the matter is, I need..we all need to fellowship. And for the first time in a long time,I felt like that place was a place in which I could receive the Lord. I didn't feel/see any of the hypocrisy that mainstream churces are known for...but I digress. Pray for me Bryce.
Um, If you don't know who this is..this is Tiffany.  I'm at work composing this epistle.
Anyways, let me know what you think about all this. Oh, and do you know of any links about Islam that prove that it may not be entirely inspired by God? I mean. it does tie into Judaism just like Christianity via Ishmael;but  you know Satan is the great imitator...this is why many pagan religions have something resembling the trinity and then there is the Roman Catholic church and blah...
but anywyas, take care

-T
>

Hello T

I would define a cult as a religious organisation that requires it's members to commit "spiritual adultery".  "Spiritual Adultery" as you may know is when a person is put between Jesus and His bride.  We believers are His bride and all relate directly to Him - we all have access to the throne.  We don't need a priest, a pastor, a minister to communicate with God for us - that's Old Testament but the Christian Church is riddled with it.  Some of these religious organisations and fellowships come over so strong with "heavy shepherding" that they are almost cultish.  As you know I was a Mormon and this is a cult because there is strong leadership who put themselves between the "believer" and God - claim they are the only true church and that all others are wrong.  They insist on absolute obedience of their leaders from subordinates.

I'm not sure what you mean about "eating and drinking".  You obviously know something I don't.  Why also does saying; "Oh, Lord Jesus" make them a cult?  When praying in a group I often say, "Amen" to something special someone else has prayed for.  And if someone may pray thanking nthe Lord for something and i realise I've got it too I would say, "Thank you Lord" also.

Further, I would also say that much of the man made church system in the world is the Harlot Church of the Revelation even though I'm a "main stream born again Christian.  I would appreciate your comments.

Thankks for telling me how you came across my site.

The Lord bless you.
Bryce Kaye
 

Bryce,

Sorry it took me so long to respond. I've just been busy doing things. or at least that's my excuse....
i was confused for a while... and angry when i came across literature that was saying that this church....this body of people that i felt that the Lord had led me to... was a cult according to some people. but i don't think so at all. from what i see, they don't practice spirtitual fornication...they don't advocate anything but biblical understanding. it's hard to really explain all that they belive.

here are some links to their websites:
http://www.livingstream.com/
http://www.thelocalchurch.org/bfa4.html
and some  links to people who oppose them:
http://www.ltm.org/
http://www.thelocalchurch.org/
let me know what you think.
They believe in God's economy and being in an organic union with God and corporate expression of God...it really sounds stranger than it is. It's like God's economy if I'm not mistaken is like in God's eyes, there are only two men...Adam and Jesus. Jesus could die for Adam and be his sacrafice because there are only the two. At first when I heard this I was astounded because Adam means "man" and it only makes since that, although God knows that i exist and you exist, it is the best possible way to cleanse man. Because if God looks at it like that, he doesn't have to send multiple Christs for each individual person. And if I'm not mistaken again, the organic union is the bond that god wants us to have with him. Wherein we'll be like God in life and nature but not in the Godhead. It's some really deep stuff.
 The reason I was wary about them calling on the name of the Lord like that was that sometimes it sounded contrived and artificial.
They call each other brother and sister and talk about the church being Christs bride and everything. I didn't know that until some friends of mine who belong to this church showed me in the bible. i also didn't know that my salvation was permanent.I've just learned so many things.
Something that used to piss me off (pardon my language) about other Christians was that they basically denied the old testament...but they "followed" such old testament ideals such as the 10 commandments. Evrything was New testament this and new testament that. Now, I know how the two go hand and hand..How grace and the law work together. We had to have the law so that we could function until the messiah came and god could let us live under grace. Wow.
Also, I was amazed to learn that there aren't pearly gates...there are like 12 pearls or something like that.
Revelation used to scare me for the longest time, but now that I know that God truly is love i'm not even afraid anymore. The thing that I don't understand though it the 1000 years. Satan will be bound for 1000 years then he'll be let loose....what's up with that? And my friends told me possibly where the Catholic idea of purgatory comes from. They say that there is supposed to be this "outer darkness" where people who weren't overcomers will dwell while Christ and the overcomers have this big wedding feast....and that's where the gnashing of the teeth and all that comes in.
And for a while, I used to think that when people went to hell, they would just go out of existence...but I read something in 1 Corinthians that tells me otherwise....that we get new imperishable bodies because flesh can't enter God's kingdom. I thought that was really interesting because it seems as if people along with Satan will be punished. But such is the will of God... My boyfriend (who just got saved, thank the Lord) and I were having a discussion recently about communication mechanisms....like if the way in which we are made in God's image is that we have a body, spririt, and soul which each correspond to different aspects of God (body is analagous to Jesus, spirit analagous to holy spirit, and soul analagous to the father)  and the spirit is the mechanism through which we contact God...and it's located inside the soul which is located inside the boyd...when we die how will we contact God. I answered this problem by applying 1 Corinthians 35-58 again. the bible is so wonderful.
Oh, I have a question, what do you think about Islam? Do you think it is an extention of the word of God, but the Muslims aren't interpreting it correctly when it comes to Christ? Because, I've often wondered about that...I don't think God would cut the Muslims off like that and let them all be decieved like that if in fact Mohammed was an agent of satan...but /i could be wrong.

Okay, enough incoherent ranting...i have some questions in here if you can help me answer em...cool.

I hope that the Lord is blessing you tremendously.

Take care,

T

p.s. what do you think about joining the armed forces? Sorry, i ask so many questions...but i learn so much from more mature Christians like yourself.
 

Hello T

Sorry I've been so long in replying, we've been away for a month in Scotland - a beautiful country.

Well, reading your email, it's difficult to know where to start so I'll start at the end and work backwards  If nothing else, it makes a change!

I see nothing wrong with joining the armed forces.  I was in the Royal Air Force.  Romans 13 tells us we have to obey the law of the land and Jesus was not a pacifist.  Every country has to be defended.  Aggression is wrong in my view.  Certainly with recent events in New York we have to try put a stop to it.  My son has lost colleagues in the WTC and he could have been one of them.  Countries have to be defended.  This is why we are behind the USA all the way.  Our armed forces are now much smaller than yours but they are all professional and amongst the finest in the world.  We don't have conscripts anymore.....

What do I think of Islam?  Allah is a false god.  Islam is a deception.  However, although deceived, the vast majority of Muslims are good honourable people.  I have travelled in the Middle East and we had agents in Kuwait and the UAE and all fine, honest men.  However, just like in the West, there are bad people.  It's a pity for them though, because Jesus is the only way to salvation so unless they become born again the wrath of God is on them.  Those men who crashed the planes are now in hell - whether they believed they were going to heaven or not!

What you say further is very interesting and I agree with much of it.  I'm glad you believe your salvation is secure once you have been born again.  I refer you to the file on this subject on my web site which I attach.  God created time therefore He must be outside of time (the law of cause and effect) - therefore He sees everything happening at once.  We know they is no time (or space for that matter) in the spirit world so if here on earth you could lose your salvation you would have to be kicked out of heaven!

Yes, I believe we have a spirit, soul and body and many Christians don't understand the difference between spirit and soul.  God communicates with us through our spirit - not our soul where satan can infuence us (emotions etc).  That's why there is so much confusion amongst Christians!

The Lord bless you.
Bryce Kaye

> Subject: hello
>
> > hi my name is kristen and one of my best friends is mormon and i am a
> > christian and it just brakes my heart that when she dies she is goin to go to
> > hell. i have tried to talk with her about jesus and christianity but she
> > tries to twist everything in the bible to fit what they believe~i don't know
> > what to do or what to say to her. Can you give me some advice!
thanks sooo much!!!!
> > God Bless you!
 

 Hello Kristen
> It is very difficult.  Your friend is decieved but she doesn't know she's
> deceived - otherwise she wouldn't be deceived - would she?  When you say
she tries to twist everything in the Bible, she doesn't realise she's doing
> that - she really believes it.
>
> There are three schools of thought:
>
> 1.  We would all agree - she needs a lot of prayer.
>
> 2.  Convince her through scripture.  In my view this is not the best way
> because one ends up arguing over the Bible and tempers can fly.
>
> 3.  Go straight for the jugular!  You have probably read my file on
> www.enlightened.org.uk "So you think you know all about the Mormons..."
> Challenge her about Joseph Smith and his immoral behaviour and his false
> doctrine (and Brigham Young's).  Better still ask her to explain why, if
the American Indians are really decended from the Jews, as the Mormon church
> claims, Why have they no Jewish genes?  It's that simple.  If they're not
> Jews as Smith said then the whole edifice falls to the ground!

I also attach 'proof' from Professor Steve Jones on the origin of the
American Indians showing their origins do not support the Book of Mormon.
If I can dig anything else up when we return from holiday I'll let you know.
>
> Do let me know what is her reply or if i can help further.  (We are going
> away on holiday for two weeks tomorrow).
>
> The Lord bless you.  We will pray for you.
>
> Bryce Kaye

>
> > hey again!
> > thanks for the help. i'm really trying to get her to understand that
> > mormonism is not of God! but she wants proof so do you like know of any
> > verses in the book of mormon that contradict with something that is says
> in the bible??? if you know of any i think that it would be a big help!!
> thanks for everything!
> > kristen
> >

> Sorry for the delay in replying - we've been away on holiday.
> I recommend you buy a book:  "Mormons Answered Verse By Verse" David Reed
> and John Farkas.  Baker Book House, Mich.  ISBN 0-8010-7761-3.    It's
> really good and well give you loads of scriptures to help you.  However, do
> pray for your friend too as I'm sure you are.
>
> God bless.
> Bryce Kaye

Subject: Mormonism

I found it difficult to believe that you were ever a true Mormon one of faith or that you have any faith in God and Jesus Christ at all.  As a faithful member of the LDS church AND a Christian the same, I send my prayers out to you, that you hatred and lies may be forgiven.  I have further investigated myself however I did not take things out of context or create evil lies about a church that for whatever reason you despise.  Believe what you want but don't spread you lies and anger.  If you truly believed it were false you would do what the missionaries do, educate and encourage people to pray about the issue and discover for themselves whether or not it is true, but you don't you just expect people to believe you. At any rate I pray for you and for your salvation.
      May God Bless You
 

Hello to you.

Thank you for emailing me.  I appreciate you getting in touch.

I take it you have read my study on Mormonism and I understand why you are angry.  I really do understasnd that you want to show me kindness but feel so angry you'd like to throttle me!  I would have felt exactly the same at one time.  Yes, I was a Mormon, as District President over ten churches here in the UK.  I was also President of the Quoram of Elders and I used to teach the Priesthood every Sunday morning when I was in the Stake House.  My first love was teaching the Gospel Doctrine Class.  I have great love for Mormons and I know them to be fine people, sincere in their faith and a fine example to others - but they are deceived.

You must be a searcher after truth yourself or you wouldn't be a Mormon, would you?  Mormons seek after truth.  This is what the missionaries say to people.  As a Mormon I carried on searching after truth.  When I finally decided to leave a General Authority came over from Salt Lake City to try persuade me to stay and we sat in my house discussing our doubts about the Mormon docrine and the Temple ritual together.

What I do ask of people is that they investigate the Mormon claims for themselves.  For example the American Red Indians have no genetic links with the Jews at all!  This one fact destroys the Mormon lie immediately.

Now, if you believe in the Mormon Jesus he is not the real Jesus and when you die the real Jesus will say He never knew you (Matthew 7:23).  That's the tragedy of Mormonism - you can worship the wrong Jesus all your life and when you die the real Jesus, the only One Who can save you, will not recognise you and turn you away.

I would like to correct you on something else if I may.  Where have I said I hate Mormons?  Please don't twist what I say.  I have many Mormon friends with whom I discuss and debate and we have a great love for each other.  I am at this moment debating and discussing these things with Burton Howard, one of your Council of Seventy at his instigation. If I hated Mormons I wouldn't waste my time but leave you to go to hell eventually.  It is because I love you as a Mormon that I am sat here typing this email at 12 midnight instead of being in bed with my wife.

The Lord bless you and i pray that one day you will come to know the truth.

Shalom

Bryce Kaye
 

Hello again.

I meant to attach my testimony to this email last night but forgot.  I hope you will accept it as a sincere expression of my adoration of the real Jesus Who is God the Father incarnate.  I know Mormon doctrine states that the Father and Jesus are separate beings but that is not what the Bible says.  You will never understand the Trinity without the Holy Spirit to teach you - so don't try!  It is just another trick of the devil's to devalue Jesus to a person working out his own salvation.  Jesus is the Great "I Am".  He is the ultimate presence.  He is everywhere - that is omnipresent in both space and time.  He fills the universe yet dwells in each believer who is born again.  If you were born again you would be able to understand this a little better.  I know Joseph Smith couldn't understand this and therefore said they were two separate Beings but that was because he was not born again either.  Jesus is God in Bodily Form.  It is He Who is the Ancient of Days - not Adam.  Jesus is self existing - He has always existed yet He came down from His glory and shed his blood on the cross for my sins and your if you will accept it..

I'll leave you with this thought:  When the Bible says:  "The Lord thy God..." the Hebrew word (from which it is translated) for Lord is "Yahweh" or "Jehovah" as the Mormons say.  The Hebrew word for God is, "Elohim".  Therefore the Bible is saying:  "The Jehovah thy Elohim."  It rather makes a nonsense of young Joseph's doctrine, doesn't it?  In addition, "Elohim" literally means; "The Gods El". It is a statement that God is a triune Being to those who have an ear to hear.

The Lord bless you.

Shalom
Bryce Kaye
 

I would like to start with apologizing.  I got the impression from you study that you are filled with an immense hatred.  And I felt like that was addressed toward Mormons.  I do not feel like throttling you, just to be clear, but I did feel as though I and what I believe was attacked, and if you were Mormon than you know that by attacking what I believe you are attacking me.  If you are trying to help Mormons by revealing the "truth" you wouldn't or shouldn't use words like liars and deception and hell, because that doesn't make any Mormon want to read further.  And as a Christian AND a Mormon I find it difficult to believe that if you are a Christian, you would believe that Jesus, the only One who can save us, would turn away from me and damn me to hell for having a great faith in his father and him.  He knows me inside and out and knows my intentions are to devote my life to him.  At any rate thank you for responding to me.  May God bless you and yours.
      JB
 

Hello again

Thanks for the apology, I had obviously given you the wrong impression.  However, if I know something is an out and out lie why can I not say that?  I know you hold Joseph Smith in high esteem - believe me I used to.  I really believed he would be there on judgement day with the Mormon god and Jesus - I really did!  Now I know the truth!

When you're deceived you don't know you're deceived - otherwise you wouldn't be deceived, would you?  That's the problem and I assume you agree with that.

Can I mention one thing more?  In your last email you referred to "God and Jesus".  You see I find that offensive!  It is a blasphemous statement.  It will, I know, surprise you and I know you don't mean it that way.  However, this is the essential difference between Christians and Mormons.  There is no one or nothing more precious than Jesus.  To say, "God and Jesus" is to imply Jesus is not God - but He is.  He is not my brother but the great "I AM".  He created the universe, not just the earth.  Mormon doctrine belittles the real Jesus.  Isaiah 45:5 and 6 and then verse 12 the Lord (Jesus) says;

"I am the Lord and there is none else, there is no God beside me:  I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:  That they may know from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me.  I am the Lord and there is none else."

"I have made the earth and created man upon it:  I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens and all their hosts have I commanded."

44:6 and 8b says:  "Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel and His redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God....   Is there a God beside me?  Yea, there is no God; I know not one."  (Or in modern English; "No, there is no other Rock, I know not one.").

What could be more plain.  There isn't a plurality of gods.  There is only one; Yahweh, the Everlasting Father.  So when you say "God and Jesus" it is incorrect - Jesus is the God and there is no other! Jesus had always existed.  He is the first and the last.  There is none other.  You believe in a fictitious Jesus, one invented by Joseph Smith.  This is why the real Jesus will not know you.  Can you see that?  It is like a friend introducing you to a man and he tells you his name is Jesus.  This friend could not save you from hell, could he.  That will be the problem for you when you die.  This is why I'm taking the trouble to email you!!!

Please, please don't be offended by this.  I'm just trying to show you what deception is and why I believe you are deceived.  I'm not trying to score points.  Why should I - I'll probably never meet you in this life but if you come to know the real Jesus we will rejoice in heaven together!

If you think what I have said in this email is wrong, please come back and tell me.  I mean you no disrespect or offence.

The Lord bless you.

Bryce Kaye
 

      I would like to start by saying that I do not, nor do any other Mormons I know, believe that Joseph Smith will have any say so in my Salvation.  I have been LDS my entire life, though not always practicing, and so have my parents and their parents and their parents, and I have never even heard of anything like that.  I would also like to say that I refer to God and Jesus Christ as part of a Godhead, being: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost.  If our correspondence is a trouble to you, it need not continue, like you, I am only trying to enlighten and educate.  I still don't understand how you can believe that Jesus Christ will turn me away, if you believe that I am deceived, and by your definition, I know not what I do (because I do not know that I am deceived), than why would I be turned away?  I have another question, you said that God IS Jesus, unless I misunderstood, I don't see how this is possible, there was an immaculate conception, and that is where Jesus came from, I thought all Christian's believed that. Is there not a Father, a Son, and a Holy Ghost?  I want to let you know that I am not offended by your beliefs, I was offended that in your latest e-mail, you referred to "my god" and you did not capitalize God and that showed great disrespect to me.  I also don't believe that you meant to disrespect me at all, but I wanted to let you know that I was offended by that.  Thank you for your continuing correspondence.
      JB
 

This is the advantage of looking into what the Mormon Church really believes.  If you go through the Mormon Temple ceremony, are obedient to the end and if the judgement on your personal works of obedience are sufficient to cover the personal sin in our lives you can be judged worthy to enter into the Celestial Kingdom and become as the Mormon Elohim.  In order for you to go into Celestial Glory, Brigham Young said you must each "pass by Brother Joseph" and receive his final approval.  Even if God Himself accepts you "Brother Joseph" could still say "No"!  I.e., Smith has the final say!!  Look it up yourself:  "Journal of Discourses" Vol. 4 page 271.  Whilst you are looking that up can I suggest you go to volume 13, page 271 (1870) and read how Brigham Young prophecied that people live on the Moon, and even, believe it or not, the Sun!!  Don't take my word for it, look it up. Then read Deuteronomy 18: 21-22 and see what it says about false prophets.

As regards your "works" mentioned above; I know just where I am going when I die - I'll be with the real Jesus, He's waiting for me because my salvation does not depend on my works   Isaiah 64:6 tells us that our good works  are like filthy rags.  Ephesians 2:8-9 says; "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God:  Not of works lest any man should boast."  Yet Mormons preach that we are saved by works.  This is a different gospel.  Galations 1:6-8 says:  "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:  ....There be some that would pervert the gospel of Christ.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."  That's what the Mormons do, preach a gospel of works not grace - a false gospel.

I have noted with considerable interest that your great grandparents were Mormons.  I have no idea of your age so I may be being presumptuous but does this mean they may have been some of those brave and faithful people who journeyed across the USA to Salt Lake City?  What a harduous journey pushing a hand cart that must have been.  What faith they must have had.  It's a pity they didn't read their Bible though because Jesus warns us of false prophets, then says: "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth; behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not...." (Matt. 24:26).  What could be plainer?  The Mormons said Jesus was in the desert (Salt Lake City) and in the secret chambers (Temple).

What I was meaning was that you always separate God and Jesus.  Anyway, as I said, you would be turned away because Mormons believe in the wrong Jesus - a false Christ for reasons which I explained before. Regarding Jesus being God.  I showed you from the Bible that Jesus is God and that it is He who created the whole universe.  The Trinity is hard to understand without the Holy Spirit but I'll try again.  God the Father is Spirit.  I know Joseph Smith taught that God is a man but he was wrong.  Jesus said God the Father is Spirit, (John 4:24) - You claim the Mormon Elohim has a body of flesh and bones! I'm sure you'll understand that I'm going to believe Jesus before Joseph Smith.  Jesus also said to Philip that he was looking at the Father when he looked at Jesus.  "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father..."

Hosea 4:6 says; "My people perish through lack of knowledge."  The real Jesus will say that you had your chance to know the truth but you allowed yourself to be blinded.

Regarding Jesus being God:  When I left the Mormons and then got to know who God really is, some years afterwards, I was amazed at Him! This may seem ridiculous but I realised I was "putting God in a box" so to speak.  I was limiting Him.  I had heard in the Mormon Temple that Adam said he could not comprehend a God who could, "live at the top of a topless throne, yet be small enough to live in believers hearts."  (Forgive me if I've not got that word for word if you've been through the temple - it's been a long time but the principle is there).  When Joseph Smith formulated his Mormon Elohim and Jesus it was clearly from his own intellect and he obviously had no comprehension of the real God.  That teaching has been passed down through the ages.  But God is outside of time and space (omnipresent - He is everywhere in time and space - if you want to know how this is scientifically I'll give you my thoughts, otherwise I won't bore you!).  Because God is omnipresent in time He has always existed.  Jesus is God incarnate (God made flesh) so He is omnipresent in time as well.  Thats a big subject and i would be happy to go into it if you are particularly interested in it.  Suffice it to say for now that it was Jesus who walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam.  He's really something you know!!!  He was conceived - true but He was also crucified before the world was!

Regarding your point about respect.  I don't want to show you any disrespect at all.  Had you not realised that I hold you in high esteem for the way you openly discuss things in pursuit of truth?  Just because I think little of Mormonism doesn't mean I think little of Mormons themselves.  I think I made that clear on my web site somewhere.  Indeed, I have defended Mormons many times here in England as being fine, honourable people, which makes it a bigger tragedy know they are the subject of a deception - that's my motivation!  I am sorry therefore if I offended you - that's not my intention.

The Lord bless you

Bryce Kaye
 

Well, I do know that passage in the "Journal of Discourses" that you referred to.  And I think that, as most things that can be left up to interpretation.  For example many interpret that to mean that since in that times of Joseph Smith there weren't many priesthood holders, and you had to be baptized by a priesthood holder, that you would be baptized by Joseph Smith or another priesthood holder.  And about that Moon thing, I was pretty sure he prophesied them to live on the Sun, not the moon, but it doesn't really matter.  And if I understood you correctly, you believe that your works will not hurt your salvation, so you think that you can do whatever you want and it will not hurt your salvation, because you have been saved purely through Grace.  And if that is the case would I not be saved, because technically going to a LDS church every Sunday is part of my "works" here on earth and my works here will not hinder my salvation, because I have been saved through grace.  Now I would like you to consider James 2:26 ".......so faith without works is dead also."  Now how is it that you are saved through grace and not works but faith without works is dead and by your own definition if you do not have faith in the "correct" Jesus you will not be saved.  Concerning your comment about flesh and bones I would like to say this "And God said let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . . "  Gen. 1:26.  And God continued to make a man of flesh and bones and a woman of the same.  I would like to say for myself that I have never "put God into a box"  that I believe that there is nothing out of the reach of God, and that 90% of the stuff there is in this world is out of my reach.  And I would like to point out that I used no "LDS scriptures."  I do know that you didn't mean to disrespect me and I said that in my last e-mail.  I know that you are not a rude and inconsiderate person, I just thought that it would be a good idea to let you know that it did bother me, but I'm over it now.  About my great grandparents you did assume just a little bit too much, so let me tell you a little more about myself, I am an eighteen year old female, and I was inactive in the church for many years, as well as the rest of my immediate family, until I decided to go back to church, for me.  I started in a Baptist church and I also tried a Catholic church a couple of times and a Presbyterian church, however none could give me what I found at the LDS church, a peace within my heart and soul.  I have never been through the Temple and I do not plan on going through any time soon.  I would like to say that I do not believe everything in my Religion, I believe that no one religion can have it all right, although some Churches including my own believe that they do.  I do not go to Church to worship people or history I go to Worship God.  I believe that Jesus knows every person on this earth and I believe that NO MATTER what religion you are or even if you never go to church Jesus will know if you have loved him always and that is why you will be saved, not because you worshiped in the right church in the right way, but that you worshiped.  If I did not believe this I would not be talking to you, because I would believe that no matter what you say I am right and you are wrong but that is not the case I believe that there is truth in some of what you say and that is why I have continued to talk to you, because if can gather the little bit of truth that everyone has, maybe I will come closer to the complete truth than I would if I only listened to what one out of many groups in this would have to say.  So thank you for sharing your truth me. =)
      May you and yours be blessed,
                  JB
 

Hello again,

Sorry for the delay in replying - my computer has been "down" (whatever that means?).

Well, it looks as if we're on the same side after all, doesn't it?  Judging from your personal history you shared with me you're even more of a searcher after truth than I was when I was in the Mormon Church.  In a way I can understand why you found a peace in the Mormons that you didn't find elsewhere!  They're very nice people but one thing about Mormon doctrine is that it can give you a feeling of peace - they seem to have all the answers.  The big question is, are those answers the correct ones?  However, this is related, in my view, to our creation in God's image to which you refer later in your email.  As I have covered earlier on in our communications, God is a triune Being and so are we - spirit, soul and body.  Mormonism appeals to the soul (mind, will and emotions).  It is neat and tidy and gives an impression of security and peace which is soulish, it appeals to our emotions - but the devil can influence greatly our sould area!

I think both passages from the Journal of Discourses are difficult to interpret any other way but with the sun and moon part I just wanted to show you one example showing that Brigham Young was a false prophet but there are many others.  Surely that must trouble you, that he made ridiculous statements like that!  As to the other point, your interpretation of Joseph Smith's approval, I'm sorry, I don't follow your argument.

You mention James 2:26 but why not quote a fuller passage in verse 14?  "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?  Or, in plain English from my NIV; "What good is it my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?  Can such faith save him?"  This is a wonderful scripture and greatly misunderstood by Mormons.  "Faith without works is dead"  - How true!  What this means is that if I say that I have faith but don't do any good works, then my lack of works shows my faith is not really deep enough faith to save me.  On the other hand if my faith produces good works then my faith is real faith and will save me.  In other words, it is not my good works that saves me but my deep faith that produces my good works.  Now there is no contradiction between the other scriptures saying we are saved by faith.  Of course you have to have faith in the real Jesus!  So, you can attend Mormon church services - or any other church services - crawling on your hands and knees for the rest of your life but that will not save you from the wrath of God.  You will only be saved by being "born again" (John 3).

My apologies for my assumptions.  I still admire those Mormons who trekked across to Salt Lake City.

Were you "born again" (John 3) when in the Baptist, Presbyterian or Catholic churches?  If you gave your life to Jesus and knew He was the real Jesus then you are born again anyway, even though you are (hopefully) temporarily with the Mormons!  I ask this because your testimony of Jesus does seem stronger than the average Mormon, from what I've read of you.

I hope you never go through the temple and take those curses on yourself.  If you do you may remember this fellow, Bryce Kaye, and say to yourself, 'he wasn't that deluded after all'.  If I told you now what takes place you wouldn't believe me anyway!

However, as I said at the start of this email, we're getting somewhere now.  Indeed we are much closer than you think.  I agree with you - no church will save you.  It is only Jesus.  Actually there is no such thing as "going to church" because it is the body of individual Christians who are the church.  The word "Church" in the original Greek means, "The called out ones" and was never a building.  Again J Smith would never have known this although in fairness to him, many of the mainstream Christian churches ignore this fact.  I certainly agree with you that no one church can save you or me.  What a relief to hear you say that and it is an answer to pray.  However, the Mormon church believes they are the only true church and that your name on their records is the Book of Life of Revelations.  The truth is that you have to have given your life to Jesus and become "born again".  Then, and only then, is your name written in the Book of Life.

If you can acknowledge that Jesus is Lord of all, that He is the God of all the universe, that there is none higher than He, in short that He is God incarnate.  If you can pray this prayer with a sincere heart:

"Dear God, I confess I have done things wrong and I know I am separated from You. I ask You to forgive me. I now believe Jesus died on the cross in my place and that I am forgiven. I believe You raised Jesus from the dead and He is alive today. I invite You Lord Jesus to come into my life and ask You to help me live it in a way You desire. Amen."

If you have prayed this prayer with a sincere heart, as I believe you have, then afterwards tell someone you have become born again or become a Christian or invited Jesus into your life, however you like to term it (You can email me if you like)  then you have become born again.  After this I would recommend you find a local Christian fellowship and go there.  Well, I'm sure you will tell me off again for suggesting it but I can only say what I believe to be true.  One thing is certain, if you have given your life to the real Jesus (God incarnate) and not a Mormon Jesus who is still hoping one day to become a Mormon Elohim, then you've made it and He will not reject you.  The only trouble is the Holy Spirit will have a hard battle with deception if you do stay in the Mormon church .

To be a good Mormon you have to believe Mormon doctrine but you say you don't.  I'll let you into a secret - I don't believe all I'm taught in the mainstream Christian churches because some of what is preached doesn't line up with the Bible.  In my view; if what you believe does line up with the people that's all that matters.  Here in England I've heard Bishops say they don't believe in the resurrection or the Virgin Birth but they're not Christians, they're just managers in a vast organisation - that's all.  The established church is full of them.  This is why the real church is the body of believers.  Where the Holy Spirit is - there is freedom.

We pray the Lord's blessings upon you.  I pray the Lord Jesus will bless you with a fine Christian husband one day.  I pray He will bless you with many children who will also become born again.  I bless you in His name that your marriage will be really happy and that you will have such great love for one another.  I bless you in Jesus name with good physical health, good spiritual health and judgment.  I bless you with an open heart for the truth.  I bless you so that you will not rest easy until you find the whole truth.  I bless you with real joy and happiness.  I bless you with the blessing of Malachi that the Lord will throw open the windows of heaven and overwhelm you with rich blessings so much so that you will not have room enough even to receive all of them.  I pray you and I will one day rejoice in our salvation together in heaven.  (Say Amen!)

Bryce Kaye

Subject: A few questions...

I just finished reading your article/story about mormonism and I just have a few questions.  I was curious as to how you joined the church, how long you were in it, and what started your disbelief which led to you choosing to leave the church.  The points you made in it were quite eye opening and at the same time, troubling, as you can probably imagine, since most of my friends, and almost all of my family are very deep into the church.  My religious life you could say has been quite rocky bouncing around from belief to nonbelief.  I was raised LDS, but stopped going when my parents split up when I was about 9.  For years I wanted nothing to do with the church and firmly believed it was a lie.  I went to a small Christian church in Orem, UT. for many years but many different things happened and I started going back to the LDS church a little over a year ago.  For a period of time, I was the "ideal mormon" and stayed that way for a while.  However, since October I have not been back to church and have had many questions about religion in general, not just the mormon church.  So I guess really I'm turning to you, to not only learn more about you (I would be a fool to blindly follow someones advice who I had never met, only read their ideas online), and maybe get some advice.  I would love to hear from you and hope you can find the time.

Thank you,

Nicolas
 

Hello Nicholas, nice to hear from you.

The trouble with deception is that when you're deceived, you don't know you're deceived, otherwise we wouldn't be deceived, would we? The most foolish thing I ever did was join the Mormon Church. The bravest thing I ever did was leave it and the greatest thing I ever did was find the real Jesus and invite Him into my life thereby being "saved" by becoming "born again" (John chap. 3).

I joined the Mormons in my 20s because I met a lady who was one. I knew little about the Bible and the Mormon missionaries seemed sincere and certainly believed in what they said. Their claims that the mainstream Christian church was spiritually corrupt and had fallen away from the truth, seemed to make sense to me. It even made sense that God would restore "all things" if they were not on earth at the time. I joined and embraced the Mormon church with great enthusiasm and studied their doctrine. I soon became an Elder, went through the Temple (many times) and became a leader in various positions. The more I studied, the more I realised there was a spirit world, not just this material world. I gained a testimony of prayer and healing which I put down to the Priesthood which I held. I believed I could move mountains and would defend the Mormon church enthusiastically.

The trouble was that my studies went beyond that recommended by the Mormons. The racist doctrine troubled me, which I was expected to defend. The temple "endowment" troubled me greatly with it’s satanic and Masonic input (the endowment has changed many times over the years). The truth about the character of Joseph Smith, upon whom the whole of my salvation depended, began to worry me. I discovered that the American Red Indians could never have been the ancient Book of Mormon people, as the Mormons claimed, as they had no trace of Hebrew genes, but were Mongoloids (this one fact alone was enough!).

Yet I knew for certain there was a God! No Christian ever witnessed to me but the Holy Spirit did. As I read the Bible the real truth began to form in my mind and scriptures seemed to light up in front of me, many of which I have mention on my web site so I won’t go into them again. I began to realise that it was Mormonism that was the satanic deception but very clever. Then the Book of Abraham was proved to be false. I had come to realise that there was simply no comparison between the Bible and the Mormon "scriptures". I realised what Joseph Smith said about the Bible may not be translated correctly was nonsense as there was continuous living proof from the manuscripts and many translations.

To cut a long story short, I announced that I was going to request excommunication as I did not believe the LDS church to be genuine. I had come to realise that salvation depended on a personal relationship with Jesus (the real Jesus - not the Joseph Smith invention) not membership of an organisation. The British Mission President (Ronald Hyde) came to see me and admitted he had grave doubts about Joseph Smith and the temple himself but said; "Where else is there to go?" He persuaded me to become District President (forerunner of Stake President) and pride persuaded me to accept. However, I knew I could not carry on with this when I knew what I did about the Mormon church. I knew the Holy Spirit wanted me to leave and over meetings with Ronald Hyde I told him I was leaving. He told me I was the only one ever to leave the Mormon church and I would be turned over to the "buffetings of satan" if I did leave and there would never be any hope for me - I would be doomed for ever in the pit of hell. I know now that this is a demonic spirit of fear and typical of cults.

Looking into what the Mormon Church really believes we can see that if you go through the Mormon Temple ceremony, are obedient to the end and if the judgment on your personal works of obedience are sufficient to cover the personal sin in our lives you can be judged worthy to enter into the Celestial Kingdom and become a god like the Mormon Elohim.  In order for you to go into Celestial Glory, Brigham Young said you must each "pass by Brother Joseph" and receive his final approval.  Even if the Mormon god himself accepts you "Brother Joseph" could still say "No"!  I.e., Smith has the final say!!  Look it up yourself:  "Journal of Discourses" Vol. 4 page 271.  (Whilst you are looking that up can I suggest you go to volume 13, page 271 (1870) and read how Brigham Young prophecied that people live on the Moon, and even, believe it or not, the Sun!!  Don't take my word for it, look it up. Then read Deuteronomy 18: 21-22 and see what it says about false prophets).

As regards your "works" mentioned above; I know just where I am going when I die - I'll be with the real Jesus, He's waiting for me because my salvation does not depend on my works   Isaiah 64:6 tells us that our good works are like filthy rags.  Ephesians 2:8-9 says; "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God:  Not of works lest any man should boast."  Yet Mormons preach that we are saved by works.  This is a different gospel.  Galations 1:6-8 says:  "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:  ....There be some that would pervert the gospel of Christ.  But though we, or an angel from heaven (Moroni?), preach any other gospel unto you that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."  That's what the Mormons do, preach a gospel of works not grace - a false gospel.

What of those brave and faithful people (many here from Britain) who journeyed across the USA to Salt Lake City?  What a harduous journey pushing a hand cart that must have been.  What faith they must have had.  It's a pity they didn't read their Bible before they set out because Jesus warns us of false prophets, then says: "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth; behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not...." (Matt. 24:26).  What could be plainer?  The Mormons said Jesus was in the desert (Salt Lake City) and in the secret chambers (Temple).

Well, I hope all this helps you Nicolas.  Do come back to me if I can help further - it is no trouble.  We will pray for you as you search for truth.

The Lord bless you.
Bryce